75 replies to this topic

[Twinklez]

During a discussion at the recent HH, it became apparent that many of us had not just one, but multiple failed marriages. One of the two men I was involved in the conversation with firmly spoke up and said "I'll never marry again!" The other quietly said "Never say never." I couldn't at that moment make eye contact with either of the men. I didn't know what to think or say. (Yeah, right...me at a loss for words?)

I was crushed by the first statement. (I'm always crushed by the first statement.) The second statement caught my heart as it fell to my knees. (Ahh... there's hope in the world.) But why?

Why did my heart fall in the first place?

What do I really want and what do I really need in a relationship?

Does that ring and piece of paper really matter?

Isn't the actual commitment between two hearts the most important thing?

Can things be worked out logically on the financial front so both parties benefit as partners without the paper?

What about things like taxes, health insurance, retirement and DEATH? What about homes and property?

Can you form a business like relationship to protect your financial and legal interests equally and still love one another?

Or, do you loose the love in the pile of paperwork?

Does the piece of paper saying you're married protect you financially?

Should I walk away from a man who says he'll never marry again? Or should I run away fast as I can from the one who does want to marry again? All I really want is to love and be loved - forever and a day.

These are the conclusions I've arrived at so far (subject to change mind you ):

1. A commitment of love and loyalty is made between two hearts or souls; and can in no way be captured or enforced by a piece of paper. If I have to have that piece of paper to know that I am truly loved, then it's not true love. It's simply a legal contract made to be broken.

2. The presence of a marriage certificate does not in any way protect you financially concerning items purchased with community money or money that was yours prior to the marriage - I know that first hand after my last go round.

3. The lack of a marriage certificate does not protect you financially either. Common law in many states can bind you financially, and just because you're not married doesn't mean you'll not enter into financial contracts or obligations with your "partner."

4. Two unmarried people can purchase, sell, improve property together if they discuss and agree on the terms of such an arrangement to start with. Business partners do it all the time.

5. The legal and financial benefits of combined taxes, health insurance, car insurance, survivor's benefits, retirement and a host of other issues are all logical reasons to enter into a marriage AFTER considerable time has been spent living together as committed, loving partners who wish to continue living as such for the rest of their lives.

6. Would I marry again...YES. (Even though the very idea scares me to death!) But, I will not do it as a stipulation to love. The love and commitment must be there first, and then...it must be of some benefit to the partnership other than just a "symbol" of our commitment to each other.

7. I will NOT change my name again! Between the back and forth of marriage and divorce I've done that four times now. The only thing it's served to do is facilitate me getting lost in being married and forgetting who I am individually. What I've learned about myself is that I'm happiest being known by the name given to me at birth...the name that represents the woman I was born to be. It's should not be necessary for me to take a man's name for him to know that I am committed to him.

Saying these things is easy. Feeling comfortable living by these statements will be a different story when my heart gets tangled with my head and the confusion of what we're taught as children muddles everything up even further! Even harder will be actually having the courage to let myself get into this pickle again in the first place!

I know there are lots of different thoughts on this subject out there. I'd really like to hear some honest viewpoints both from your heart and your head. What are you reasons why and why not?

[cmt489]

I don't forsee myself ever getting married again for so many reaons. My reaons will probably ring as sad to you but true as well. I am too scared to ever commit that far into a relationship again. I am also scared to give someone legal rights to my property to someone who has done nothing to help create that property base. Of course, there are prenuptual agreements that can help with this but it always becomes a fight in the end. Finally, I just don't know if I could ever endure the heart break of divorce again. I don't trust that the person I am with will not change into an unpredictable creature anymore and, therefore, I just don't trust the notion of a relatinoship that is supposed to last forever anymore.

[sandiegocarol]

I think we just need to give relationships more time to develop. You have to get over the honeymoon phase and into real life to find out what a person is really like. Maybe we're afraid of getting close to someone and being hurt and maybe it's not the thought of marraige that scares us at all. I would get married again if I could find a man who could validate my feelings without hurting them, stop trying to fix me and just love me the way I am.

[6Gill]

Just an observation....
The concept of marrige for love/romance is a new concept in terms of human history.In many parts of the world it isn't a primary consideration.Throw in the fact that we get bombared by feel good advertising/tv/movies gives people a lot of false information and expectations along with no real ways to deal with real life.The expectations of couples and relationships was different 50 years ago and there were less options which in a way made things easier but earier doesn't always mean happier.
I've never been married but to the right person I would but more because it's important to them.I personaly feel that a piece of paper isn't going to save a poor/bad relationship nor the lack of one weaken a true bond.

Eric

[Latitude Adjustment]

Being a two time loser I've said never again but twice in the last five years I've caught myself thinking I could do it again. I guess it depends on who you are with

[Twinklez]

I don't forsee myself ever getting married again for so many reaons. My reaons will probably ring as sad to you but true as well. I am too scared to ever commit that far into a relationship again. I am also scared to give someone legal rights to my property to someone who has done nothing to help create that property base. Of course, there are prenuptual agreements that can help with this but it always becomes a fight in the end. Finally, I just don't know if I could ever endure the heart break of divorce again. I don't trust that the person I am with will not change into an unpredictable creature anymore and, therefore, I just don't trust the notion of a relatinoship that is supposed to last forever anymore.

We have a lot of the same concerns:
1. I just lost most everything I owned because I trusted the man I married. It was property I worked to pay for over 20 years and he had absolutely no contribution in it whatsoever.

2. A prenup only helps in the event of a divorce or maybe death depending on how it's written; it does not help protect you from actions he/she may take during the relationship that are foolish or spiteful while that person has access to joint property or property you had before the union was established. And it doesn't protect you from financial obligation that person incurs during the marriage.

3. I am so afraid of a commitment that sometimes I think I sabotage a potential relationship with clingly or needy actions so that I don't have to face my fears. I'm affectionate person, but very strong and independent so I figure this must be something I'm doing on purpose underneath it all.

4. The pain - I remember how bad my first divorce hurt. My knees buckled and my attorney and mom literally carried me out of the courtroom when the judge pronounced my divorce as final. The second one was different. It was just my attorney and I in the courtroom this time. In Texas you have to state certain things during the final hearing...basically saying it's over and done with and there's no changing it. I remember seeing my husband look down at the ground and as he mumbled the words he was asked to repeat. I held my chin up, I spoke loud and clear looking him straight in the face when it was my turn. I walked alone out of the courtroom and through the crowd of his family members that had gathered at the stairs to intimidate me. Without a tear, I crossed the street to my office and ordered a box of chocolates from See's in California.

Believe it or not, that second one hurt a hell of a lot worse, though my actions at the time didn't reflect my pain. It left me feeling broken beyond repair; hollow inside. It all but destroyed my trust in others and my self esteem. It made me question my value to myself and to others.

These are very sad things indeed. But even more so is the thought of isolating my heart from the world for the rest of my life. I'm much more afraid of the pain and sorrow that comes from being afraid to share my heart than I am from loving and losing again.

To not marry...that's ok. It's not necessary, but I would do it after careful consideration and planning if it's a logical thing to do and benefits the partnership.

To never love again is simply not acceptable for me. But, my heart comes with a condition...one of intended lifetime commitment that reaches far beyond the bindings of a marriage certificate.

So how do you work out all the legalities and logistics? How can you protect your heart and properties, and allow your relationship to grow into love...real love? How do you do that?

Just an observation....
The concept of marrige for love/romance is a new concept in terms of human history.In many parts of the world it isn't a primary consideration.Throw in the fact that we get bombared by feel good advertising/tv/movies gives people a lot of false information and expectations along with no real ways to deal with real life.The expectations of couples and relationships was different 50 years ago and there were less options which in a way made things easier but earier doesn't always mean happier.
I've never been married but to the right person I would but more because it's important to them.I personaly feel that a piece of paper isn't going to save a poor/bad relationship nor the lack of one weaken a true bond.

Eric

Eric, I think what you're saying is the direction I'm leaning. It's not the paper I need, but a commitment from the heart.

With the options presented today there is no reason to attempt to work anything out when the road gets bumpy - especially when there's an easy way out. I'd venture to say that in earlier days, many people stayed "unhappily" married simply because it was easier to do.

In my mind, if you are truly in love with someone and he/she with you, then that legal bond is not going to have any impact on whether you attempt to work out the kinks or not; it'll be what's in your hearts or not that determines whether you stay or go.

[captsteve]

i will have to think on this one quite a bit......

[Twinklez]

i will have to think on this one quite a bit......

Trust me... it's more like this:

[finley]

I have said never again because I don;t forsee a circumstance that would require me to 'marry" someone to be with them or live with them or whatever...I am grown..my kids are almost grown and " marriage" as a social entity is not necessary...as for the "never say never" it is true because I cant forsee all circumstances...and I may come upon one...but it would have to be good....at this point I thimk it will be a while before I even consider living with someone...who knows..the winds of tommorrow could change everything

Edited by finley, 29 January 2006 - 06:41 PM.

[Dive_buddy]

Will I ever marry again? It is far too soon to tell.

Does the ring or piece of paper make a marriage? In no way, shape, or form.

In a "real" marriage, the ring and piece of paper serves only to satisfy the public. They can not hold it together, as evidenced by so many divorces. They no longer even seem to serve as a reminder to any form of commitment. Yes, the paperwork does get in the way.

Here is where I get flamed. I hope I can say this correctly. But ladies, when you ask me how my finances are, if I will sign a pre-nup and things like that. I have to doubt that you really have any strong feelings for me at all. I DO understand, many of you have been burned, and burned badly. And to a small degree, I know your pain. But when you tell me of a plan to protect yourself "in case we get divorced" then I have to assume that you do not plan to make the relationship a lasting one. Again, I understand why many women, and men, feel they need to protect themselves. All I ask is that you understand how it makes me feel in a relationship, when I have to "pass" a "selection board". I can only feel that you are not looking for someone to share your life with. You are simply looking for someone to spend your life with.

In fairness, I too have a selection board that a woman must pass. It is:

• Have a pulse.
• Do not mace me.

All else is negotiable.

A real marriage, takes place with or without a ring, preacher, witnesses, or even the flower girl. In a real marriage, there is no need of a pre-nup, his and her accounts and signed this and that. For in a "real" marriage, neither of you will ever willingly or deliberately cause harm to the other. As long as you both shall live.

Let the flames begin. I stand by my convictions.

[WreckWench]

Let the flames begin. I stand by my convictions.

Convictions are wonderful...and they are increasingly rare these days. Flaming is not acceptable either online or off...and most certainly not on this site. However no matter how controversial your comments are...you'll not be flamed as you have presented your thoughts carefully, diligently and they are supported by your post which you very elegantly explain.

Convictions are in...flaming it out...and now to reply to your post....


I will say this...I think many women agree with you...unfortunately that was the FIRST time that they got married and the aftermath of the experience has shown that too many people do not think as they once did...and you still do. -ww

[Dive_buddy]

Let the flames begin. I stand by my convictions.

Convictions are wonderful...and they are increasingly rare these days. Flaming is not acceptable either online or off...and most certainly not on this site. However no matter how controversial your comments are...you'll not be flamed as you have presented your thoughts carefully, diligently and they are supported by your post which you very elegantly explain.

Convictions are in...flaming it out...and now to reply to your post....


I will say this...I think many women agree with you...unfortunately that was the FIRST time that they got married and the aftermath of the experience has shown that too many people do not think as they once did...and you still do. -ww

No flames? I was unaware of this. It is a welcome change from most forums. I thank you, and tip my hat.

To be honest, I did not think exactly like this the first 2 times. I wanted it to be for life. I simply not realise that the first 2 did not share my idea of commitment. (weak simle)

Thanks

[WreckWench]

No flames? I was unaware of this. It is a welcome change from most forums. I thank you, and tip my hat.

You are most welcome! We try hard to please....

and we now resume you to your regular thread in progress...

[finley]

Will I ever marry again? It is far too soon to tell.

Does the ring or piece of paper make a marriage? In no way, shape, or form.

In a "real" marriage, the ring and piece of paper serves only to satisfy the public. They can not hold it together, as evidenced by so many divorces. They no longer even seem to serve as a reminder to any form of commitment. Yes, the paperwork does get in the way.

Here is where I get flamed. I hope I can say this correctly. But ladies, when you ask me how my finances are, if I will sign a pre-nup and things like that. I have to doubt that you really have any strong feelings for me at all. I DO understand, many of you have been burned, and burned badly. And to a small degree, I know your pain. But when you tell me of a plan to protect yourself "in case we get divorced" then I have to assume that you do not plan to make the relationship a lasting one. Again, I understand why many women, and men, feel they need to protect themselves. All I ask is that you understand how it makes me feel in a relationship, when I have to "pass" a "selection board". I can only feel that you are not looking for someone to share your life with. You are simply looking for someone to spend your life with.

In fairness, I too have a selection board that a woman must pass. It is:

• Have a pulse.
  
  
• Do not mace me.

All else is negotiable.

A real marriage, takes place with or without a ring, preacher, witnesses, or even the flower girl. In a real marriage, there is no need of a pre-nup, his and her accounts and signed this and that. For in a "real" marriage, neither of you will ever willingly or deliberately cause harm to the other. As long as you both shall live.

Let the flames begin. I stand by my convictions.

Awesomely stated,,,and I agree...if someone loves me they will understand my fear and timidity of a situation...and just as you feel a pre nup etc etc. is a show of doubt of true committment to the relationship ( note: I did not say if I agree or diagree) I also feel that a marry me or lose me is an equal satement of I don't thimk you'll stick around without the paperwork. Oh and bythe way... I have a pulse and don't own mace (flames included )

Edited by finley, 29 January 2006 - 07:43 PM.

[Twinklez]

To be honest, I did not think exactly like this the first 2 times. I wanted it to be for life. I simply not realise that the first 2 did not share my idea of commitment. (weak simle)

It hurts me too if a man implies he's afraid I might take him for what's he's got, or otherwise break his heart. It hurt me to hear the man at the Happy Hour say he'd never marry again. That implied that he didn't trust me. But you know what? It's not me he doesn't trust; it's life. He's been hurt, like I've been hurt and he's afraid or reluctant to risk it all again. I can't blame him, and I can't take it personal.

Each time I became involved I thought it would be forever. Heck, who would marry, have three sons and quit a good job to be a stay-at-home mom? Definately not a woman planning on being single soon?

Who would sell everything she owns (boat, horses, house, etc...), move across three states (uprooting her sons from their home, friends and extended family), and then donate every cent and every thing she has to improve someone else's life just so that he and his children will benefit from her foolishness while she and her sons struggle monthly to pay the rent? Certainly not a woman who thought this wasn't a forever thing.

We don't plan it to be this way. But this is how it has ended up. We want to love again, but we're afraid. So we get creative and try to find ways to "protect" ourselves in the event that things don't work out.

Because I want separate accounts or want a prenup protecting my property doesn't mean I intend to leave you in the future. Quite the contrary...it means I love you enough to risk my heart again; but see no reason to risk my financial security should my heart be mistaken.

In my opinion, three accounts would work best...his, hers, and ours. We know what our monthly bills are, we know what we'd like to save monthly and we share in that evenly or proportionately to our salaries, or in whatever way we feel comfortable and deposit or monies for our share of the joint bills in a joint account and let the payments automatically, or savings accrue...either way. What's left our our salaries is ours to play with individually with no guilt, no permission or discussion needed. If I want a new car and can pay for it cool...I'll pay for it and I'll have it. If it's something I need and can't entirely afford, and he cares to help...cool too, we'll be able to work that out. If it's for both of us, then we talk and decide to include it in the monthly bills and share in the payments, and the fun of driving it.

For me...I don't think so much of a prenup...as much as I think in terms of a significant amount of time demonstrating commitment and living together harmoniously; then a logical reason for marriage. Marriage accomplishes two things...proof of commitment to the public (which I don't need); and certain financial or logical benefits (which may later be taken into consideration). If one wants to profess love in public...heck, you can do that on an SD trip with all of your friends and not have to pay a preacher, or buy a license!

Being a two time loser I've said never again but twice in the last five years I've caught myself thinking I could do it again. I guess it depends on who you are with

I wouldn't say "two-time loser", I'd say "two-time learner." You're smarter now and have learned to allow your head to guide your heart. You were at least able to consider it and found it wasn't the right situation. But you didn't wall yourself off from the world out of fear either. BRAVO!