80 replies to this topic

[jextract]

I've found the best way to deal with an offensive person on the ascent line is as follows, and does not require a spool:

1) Approach offensive diver from the rear.
2) Use double-ender to attach 75# lift bag to rear of offensive diver.
3) Inflate lift bag to capacity.
4) Problem solved ... assume your place on the ascent line.

[VADiver]

SMB is for Surface Marker Buoy.

After reading your post I really don't know what to say.

First, why is the fault of DIR divers that you, as a dive master, don’t know what SMB stands for? It’s not an obscure term, and I take exception to your comment.

Second, thanks for sharing all of your advanced degrees with us. That's very helpful and pertinent to the discussion. Also pertinent is a term called ‘research,’ which is also taught along with these advanced classes.

Third, continuing education is a part of diving, plain and simple. Once you close your mind to new things you become unsafe. I’m not calling you unsafe but I find your attitude a little condescending.

Fourth, spools are not just for caves or penetration. They come in handy in open water applications too, as numerous people on this thread have mentioned.

Yep - so is someone going to tell me what it is??? I know what DIR stands for, and it is this exact attitude that makes me so very "closed minded" to it. That, plus the fact that having earned 1 BS degree, 3 Masters Degrees, 1 Post Graduate Degree and a Naval War College Diploma - you all make it sound waaaayyyy too much like education to be any fun at all to me. I suppose it is closed minded, but I'd give up diving before I'd make it so much of an educational pursuit. But, don't worry, the waters will soon be safe - I am committed to one more SD trip and then I'm hanging up my BCD.

But, in the meantime, I really would like to know what an SMB is - we never talked spools or anything related in any of my PADI classes - even the DM classes. I also don't go in anything I can't see out the other side of and will abort any dives in strong currents.

[Dive_Girl]

No thanks - don't see the need. And Twinklez, I don't even know what an SMB is, and I've never been on a boat in 14 years and two oceans that required one or a spool

Hmmm,

A PADI Divemaster that doesn't know what an SMB is, and cannot see any need for such a device.

MMMmmmmmkay.

Not all dive professionals in all capacities will have the need to carry or use a Surface Marker Buoy (SMB), therefore casting a questioning tone toward AliKat, a PADI Divemaster, is not really necessary is it? For example, I am a PADI instructor who always dives with a liftbag (that serves as an SMB) and spool/reel. Our dive shop does not have any Divemasters or higher dive professionals who DO NOT carry SMBs and spools/reels due to our water conditions (right graceful_c?). However, with that said, I know of several other dive professionals from carious training agencies in other parts of the world who do not find need for SMBs and spools/reels.

Yep - so is someone going to tell me what it is??? I know what DIR stands for, and it is this exact attitude that makes me so very "closed minded" to it. That, plus the fact that having earned 1 BS degree, 3 Masters Degrees, 1 Post Graduate Degree and a Naval War College Diploma - you all make it sound waaaayyyy too much like education to be any fun at all to me. I suppose it is closed minded, but I'd give up diving before I'd make it so much of an educational pursuit. But, don't worry, the waters will soon be safe - I am committed to one more SD trip and then I'm hanging up my BCD.

But, in the meantime, I really would like to know what an SMB is - we never talked spools or anything related in any of my PADI classes - even the DM classes. I also don't go in anything I can't see out the other side of and will abort any dives in strong currents.

SMBs are not DIR specific. It is simply an abbreviation, as VADiver explains above, divers who are familiar with them use. Although you were not introduced to them in any of your PADI classes, your diving conditions may not have warranted the teaching or their use by your instructors (although I personally find them handy wherever I dive and incorporate them starting as early as PADI AOW when appropriate).

I can see from a couple different sides misunderstandings here - but I ask everyone to please be reminded of our General Respect section of our site policies, thank you.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread here - how about newly minted PDIC Instrcutor Jexy using the term double-ended??? I know that's not a PDIC specific term, but I have to admit I only learned the familiar use of that term in my tech class. Go laugh if y'all want - I don't care. So Jexy, care to give a simple example of that one?

[gcbryan]

I would add that although I have spools/bag, etc. and carry then on some but not most dives in many circumstances they are not something that you need so much as it's nice to have.

In an open water situation and one that is not several miles out in the ocean it might be nice to have for an open water ascent but you certainly shouldn't need one. It might be nice to let the boat captain know where you are but in many situations it's not necessary.

It's one of those things where it's necessary in a limited number of situations and if you have one already then you may find additional reasons to use one (meaning spools or spool and bag/smb.

Edited by gcbryan, 27 September 2006 - 06:00 PM.

[jextract]

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread here - how about newly minted PDIC Instrcutor Jexy using the term double-ended??? I know that's not a PDIC specific term, but I have to admit I only learned the familiar use of that term in my tech class. Go laugh if y'all want - I don't care. So Jexy, care to give a simple example of that one?

Ask and ye shall receive...

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[Twinklez]

Twink, the practical suggestions were great! Like I said, I was stupidly carrying around my "SMB" with no freaking line to send it up. DUH. Thanks for setting me straight. I'm still skeered of getting tangled up in my spool, though maybe scubadad can help me out with that.

I was confused because I thought you were suggesting I was being "impatient," when my actions were to give those divers a clear berth and keep us all alot safer.

Believe me, I think long and hard before posting my travails to a bulletin board. But, I learn so much when I do that it's worth it.

Always difficult to determine someone's intent online...smilies only go so far when it comes to conveying the tone of a conversation.

I don't own an SMB or a spool; I borrowed from a friend for my trips. Like you I was worried about deployment, entanglements, etc. So, earlier this summer I borrowed a reel and smb for the soul purpose of practicing. I went to my local dive park, planted myself underwater on a platform and deployed. Then I moved off the platform, established neutral bouyancy and deployed a couple more times while maintaining bouyancy. The reel was cumbersome and the folks here recommended a finger spool, so that's what I took with me. I'll purchase one of each at some point this winter as the reel is more suited to lift bag use, but the spool is better for a SMB.

Not at all suggesting anything about your level of patience...but thinking that a proactive hand signal might have given the aggitated lady on the line a little assurance that you weren't a threat and were actually concerned.

Many of my posts have been accompanied with a little frustration or even heartache, but I've learned that there is value in everything...even that which hurts. It's always worth it in the long run.

[Twinklez]

No thanks - don't see the need. And Twinklez, I don't even know what an SMB is, and I've never been on a boat in 14 years and two oceans that required one or a spool

I'm sorry AliKat - I didn't see this until tonight; I'm not online so much these days. An SMB is a surface marker bouy or a safety sausage. Tall and skinny, usually orange, they are used to let someone uptop know where you are surfacing, or signal the boat there's a problem. Tall and skinny so they can be seen in some of the higher swells.

I was required to have an SMB on my Flower Gardens trip. If I didn't have one I could have given my C card to the DM in exchange for one for the duration of the trip. If you get pulled away from the boat by the current, you shoot your SMB and the DM's can see where you are so they know where to go pick you up.

I saw in one of your posts you mentioned that you don't dive in currents. Maybe that's why none of the boats you've been on ever required one. But even on a drift dive with mild current it's a great idea to have one. In some of the lakes I dive, the boat traffic is somewhat heavy and being able to send up that SMB before surfacing makes me feel just a tad bit safer even if we have deployed a float with a dive flag. I agree that diving should be fun, but having an SMB is kind of like having road flairs in your car trunk for when you need them - it alerts others of your presence.

I learned to use both an SMB and a lift bag in my NAUI Advanced course, but we used a reel and not a finger spool. The reel is more appropriate for the lift bag giving you better control over the item you're lifting. I think the finger spool is a lot better for the SMB. I'm not at all surprised you didn't learn about SMB's and spools in your training; there are a lot of things I missed in NAUI classes that I've seen taught in others from the same agency. When I discover the things I missed, I do whatever it takes to learn them. I want to be the best diver I'm capable of being, I want to be a safe diver and I want to be prepared for what can happen. The more I know, the more confident I am, the more I relax and have fun!

I understand the frustration with all the acronyms; I see them all the time when reading the techie posts. I just butt in and ask what they mean, search them online, send a PM, or ask a friend if I really want to know. I apologize for being guilty of the same thing the techies do and will try very hard in the future to remember to accompany the acronyms with a description that will benefit divers who have not yet been or had the need to be exposed to the topic of discussion.

Twinklez

[ScubaDadMiami]

I will just add that the reason I use a reel instead of a spool is that the spool only holds a short amount of line, perhaps 150 feet. This will not be of much use to the diver that needs to shoot the SMB from 200 feet, will it? Also, it is not enough for a dive approaching 150 since deeper current might be heading in one direction while the surface current might be going in another. This can result in the bag moving opposite of the diver, requiring lots of extra scope to be let out in order not to become dragged to the surface.

I'll take spools on shallower dives. However, on deeper dives, I take a reel because it can hold 400 feet (and more) line on it.

[Dive_Girl]

I will just add that the reason I use a reel instead of a spool is that the spool only holds a short amount of line, perhaps 150 feet. This will not be of much use to the diver that needs to shoot the SMB from 200 feet, will it? Also, it is not enough for a dive approaching 150 since deeper current might be heading in one direction while the surface current might be going in another. This can result in the bag moving opposite of the diver, requiring lots of extra scope to be let out in order not to become dragged to the surface.

I'll take spools on shallower dives. However, on deeper dives, I take a reel because it can hold 400 feet (and more) line on it.

crap - good point SDM!! As many of know I am a self-proclaimed spool enthusiast. Looks like I have to find a decent non-bulky reel. Any suggestios?

[gcbryan]

I will just add that the reason I use a reel instead of a spool is that the spool only holds a short amount of line, perhaps 150 feet. This will not be of much use to the diver that needs to shoot the SMB from 200 feet, will it? Also, it is not enough for a dive approaching 150 since deeper current might be heading in one direction while the surface current might be going in another. This can result in the bag moving opposite of the diver, requiring lots of extra scope to be let out in order not to become dragged to the surface.

I'll take spools on shallower dives. However, on deeper dives, I take a reel because it can hold 400 feet (and more) line on it.

I'm sure there is an answer but why would you need to shoot a bag from 200 fsw? Wouldn't you usually wait until your first stop?

Edited by gcbryan, 28 September 2006 - 11:03 AM.

[netmage]

I will just add that the reason I use a reel instead of a spool is that the spool only holds a short amount of line, perhaps 150 feet. This will not be of much use to the diver that needs to shoot the SMB from 200 feet, will it? Also, it is not enough for a dive approaching 150 since deeper current might be heading in one direction while the surface current might be going in another. This can result in the bag moving opposite of the diver, requiring lots of extra scope to be let out in order not to become dragged to the surface.

I'll take spools on shallower dives. However, on deeper dives, I take a reel because it can hold 400 feet (and more) line on it.

I'm sure there is an answer but why would you need to shoot a bag from 200 fsw? Wouldn't you usually wait until you first stop?

Depends on the current... when I dove the Hydro Atlantic a few weeks ago (170'), there was no current and the Captain requested we 'pop a bag' from the wreck so he could track each diver individually. In this instance, we had three teams, two divers per team. It tells him a few things:
Where you are.
You've left the wreck. (Tho I suppose this could be assumed by shooting from 1st stop as well)

If there was a strong current and you waited before shooting the bag you might be a distance off depending on much ascent time you took. Likely cuts down on his task loading trying to hunt for markers in the distance...

-Tim

[ScubaDadMiami]

I will just add that the reason I use a reel instead of a spool is that the spool only holds a short amount of line, perhaps 150 feet. This will not be of much use to the diver that needs to shoot the SMB from 200 feet, will it? Also, it is not enough for a dive approaching 150 since deeper current might be heading in one direction while the surface current might be going in another. This can result in the bag moving opposite of the diver, requiring lots of extra scope to be let out in order not to become dragged to the surface.

I'll take spools on shallower dives. However, on deeper dives, I take a reel because it can hold 400 feet (and more) line on it.

I'm sure there is an answer but why would you need to shoot a bag from 200 fsw? Wouldn't you usually wait until you first stop?

Depends on the current... when I dove the Hydro Atlantic a few weeks ago (170'), there was no current and the Captain requested we 'pop a bag' from the wreck so he could track each diver individually. In this instance, we had three teams, two divers per team. It tells him a few things:
Where you are.
You've left the wreck. (Tho I suppose this could be assumed by shooting from 1st stop as well)

If there was a strong current and you waited before shooting the bag you might be a distance off depending on much ascent time you took. Likely cuts down on his task loading trying to hunt for markers in the distance...

-Tim

That's the reason I shoot as soon as I clear the structure.

[jextract]

crap - good point SDM!! As many of know I am a self-proclaimed spool enthusiast. Looks like I have to find a decent non-bulky reel. Any suggestios?

Try the Salvo reel:
http://5thdx.purehos...;products_id=42

[jextract]

Also, you might try marking your stops on your spool line so you can find it easily if you have bad viz or lose your mask on the ascent. You might use both a waterproof marker (so you can see it) and knotting it (so you can feel it).

[WreckWench]

To repeat what has been said several times...many divers know SMB's as "Safety Sausages" as that term is most often used in tropical diving destinations as well as the Flower Gardens and several other advanced diving destinations that I have personlly dove in. Herein lies the what I see as the reason for the confusion. SMB's and Safety Sausages are the same thing. Whereas all safety sauages are SMB's not all SMB's are saftety sausages. We simply have a terminology issue at play....and no need for value judgement in either direction.

General Respect is crucial in any environment and most certainly in an online environment and always in this venue.

General Respect is what allows our forum to be fun and lively. General respect also involves patience, explanation providing information without judgment when asked directly, and sometimes apology if inadvertently misunderstood.

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In order for this venue to provide one of its most primary functions which is that of open exchange we must be open to what sounds like a silly question and we must be open to people who just 'don't get it' and we must be open to wanting to help others. If you do not see yourself able and willing to help others, patient, or kind then please do not participate in this venue.

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