328 replies to this topic

[annasea]

So, you're saying that we (men) should "feel" your (women's) "pain"??? 

Not at all. It's not even what I'm saying, it's what the book is suggesting. That's why I'm paraphrasing it -- I reckon it knows plenty more than me!

Anyway, to elaborate on the intimacy statement, these are direct quotes taken from the book, following the statement:

"...(women) friends enjoy the opportunity to share freely the mishaps, frustrations, disappointments, and complaints of the week."

"A man can easily get the wrong impression. When a women dwells on negative feelings or problems in her life, instead of valuing her willingness to share openly, a man mistakenly assumes that she is difficult to please. . . . . When she appears to be difficult to please, he may easily become turned off."

Personally, I don't care for the word 'dwells'. Just because a woman might mention a trial or tribulation, it doesn't mean she's the queen of negativity. And how many men are that interested in 'pleasing' a woman, anyway?

[drdiver]

And how many men are that interested in 'pleasing' a woman, anyway? tongue.gif

It's ALL I think about, night and day, day and night, wait, that could be a song......

Sometimes I think women are most pleased when you don't try to please them. If you try to please them, you validate their neuroses, which they know make them unhappy.

But that's just part of the perversity of male-female attraction.

[intotheblue]

Just because a woman might mention a trial or tribulation, it doesn't mean she's the queen of negativity. And how many men are that interested in 'pleasing' a woman, anyway?

Whereas men -- maybe not on the first date -- just wanna get laid! (Or at least cop a feel -- or 3!) 

The right man... of course!

And I was hoping we were supposed to "at least feel"...

In reality, those men (and women) that see this dating thing as a game to get sex, don't really care much about pleasing the other. It's mostly about manipulating, or being manipulated for some perceived value of "sex". When it comes down to finding someone that "cares", you need to both value people, particularly each other. Sex doesn't insure that is the case... beyond physical gratification, that is. Real intimacy is much deeper than sex, and sex doesn't equate to real intimacy. How do you find someone that really cares??? Well, most people don't want to wait that long... and sex will usually occlude the ability to achieve that real intimacy. I guess after so long struggling to find that real intimacy, most are willing to settle for just the physical intimacy. We settle for LESS. As one friend confessed to me... he "let the little head do the thinking for the BIG head".

Counterpoint???

ITB...

[annasea]

Sometimes I think women are most pleased when you don't try to please them. If you try to please them, you validate their neuroses, which they know make them unhappy.

Well this is interesting . . . what do you mean exactly?

[annasea]

In reality, those men (and women) that see this dating thing as a game to get sex, don't really care much about pleasing the other.  It's mostly about manipulating, or being manipulated for some perceived value of "sex".  When it comes down to finding someone that "cares", you need to both value people, particularly each other.  Sex doesn't insure that is the case... beyond physical gratification, that is.  Real intimacy is much deeper than sex, and sex doesn't equate to real intimacy.  How do you find someone that really cares???  Well, most people don't want to wait that long...  and sex will usually occlude the ability to achieve that real intimacy.  I guess after so long struggling to find that real intimacy, most are willing to settle for just the physical intimacy.  We settle for LESS.    As one friend confessed to me... he "let the little head do the thinking for the BIG head". 

Counterpoint???

ITB... 

Ha! NO counterpoint!!! I agree with you, or rather, I'm surprised you agree with me!

If someone is just lookin' ta get laid, they're (probably) not looking for a relationship anyway.

I don't think sex and intimacy have anything to do with one another unless there's real caring involved. Your body is being 'intimate' but if your mind is not involved, it's just a physical sensation, at best, that you're experiencing.

ITB, do you really think people are struggling to find that intimacy? I get a little cynical at times on this matter, and tend to think that some people look for a mate because they'd rather not be alone, or are subject to society or peer pressure, etc., or are looking for someone to fulfil 'their' wants and needs, ie. house, car, kids, big Thanksgiving dinners, etc.

I think I wrote this somewhere else on the forum, but I think some people are looking for someone to fit them as they are, rather than grow and evolve with someone they really care about it.

Anyone wanna 'grow' with me? (Please note, this question is rhetorical. Well, only sort of!)

[drdiver]

QUOTE (drdiver @ Jun 11 2005, 01:21 PM)
Sometimes I think women are most pleased when you don't try to please them. If you try to please them, you validate their neuroses, which they know make them unhappy.

Well this is interesting . . . what do you mean exactly?

well, upon immediate reflection, I can give you the example of the Evil One. Which is admittedly very extreme--but there are others. The Evil One suffers from Munchhausen's. (you can look that one up--not the same as Munchhausen's by proxy which is often on the talk shows) When I empathized with her endless diseases, she tended to dismiss me, but when I ignored her B.S. she inevitably become amorous. It's a quest for approval which both men and women want. They just go about it in different ways.

How are those scuba lessons coming along?

[intotheblue]

ITB, do you really think people are struggling to find that intimacy? I get a little cynical at times on this matter, and tend to think that some people look for a mate because they'd rather not be alone, or are subject to society or peer pressure, etc., or are looking for someone to fulfil 'their' wants and needs, ie. house, car, kids, big Thanksgiving dinners, etc.

I think I wrote this somewhere else on the forum, but I think some people are looking for someone to fit them as they are, rather than grow and evolve with someone they really care about it. 

Anyone wanna 'grow' with me? (Please note, this question is rhetorical. Well, only sort of!) 

I think you are right on several counts... Annasea. It is "man's" nature to want everyone else to accommodate their own wants, needs and wishes. It takes work to grow together, and often some pain. Expectations on both sides complicate things, and being human it's a battle against selfishness. We struggle to find intimacy I think because we've allowed it to be confused with/by other things. We settle for less because it is less work, but eventually we hurt because we didn't find true intimacy/relationship. The nature of man (man and woman) is to want relationship... but we want it on our own terms most of the time. Most of us want to be our own little "god" and have others bow to our own will.
When we are willing to yield our own wills to have a real relationship, then progress begins. However, as soon as one person demonstrates expectations, the balance gets off again and if a selfish response follows, it gets more off balance... each end getting farther from agreement. It's definitely not easy, and if there's no "center" about which both agree, it'll never work long term. The idea is to grow together towards the center! Most people want to be that center themselves.

return volley...

ITB...

[annasea]

When I empathized with her endless diseases, she tended to dismiss me, but when I ignored her B.S. she inevitably become amorous.  It's a quest for approval which both men and women want.  They just go about it in different ways.

How are those scuba lessons coming along?

Interesting. And what is the way, in your opinion, that men go about seeking this approval that you speak of? (I have pen and paper ready!)

As for the 'scuba' lessons, I believe you mean 'swimming' lessons! I can manouver on my back relatively well, but that front crawl business needs plenty of work, what with putting my face in the water and all! But I persevere.

My gym, the YWCA, is running a two hour 'Discover Scuba' course next month which I have registered for. Better to spend $35 first than $500 to make sure I will even like the activity!

[intotheblue]

When I empathized with her endless diseases, she tended to dismiss me, but when I ignored her B.S. she inevitably become amorous.  It's a quest for approval which both men and women want.   They just go about it in different ways.

How are those scuba lessons coming along?

Interesting. And what is the way, in your opinion, that men go about seeking this approval that you speak of? (I have pen and paper ready!)

As for the 'scuba' lessons, I believe you mean 'swimming' lessons! I can manouver on my back relatively well, but that front crawl business needs plenty of work, what with putting my face in the water and all! But I persevere.

My gym, the YWCA, is running a two hour 'Discover Scuba' course next month which I have registered for. Better to spend $35 first than $500 to make sure I will even like the activity!

Become a competent and comfortable swimmer before you risk a negative experience in a DS. Once you are comfortable swimming, and yes with your face in the water, you'll likely take to SCUBA like a "fish to water". If you're aprehensive, and you have a single bad experience, you'll miss out on a great sport and some great people! We wouldn't want that to happen...

ITB...

[annasea]

Become a competent and comfortable swimmer before you risk a negative experience in a DS.  Once you are comfortable swimming, and yes with your face in the water, you'll likely take to SCUBA like a "fish to water".  If you're aprehensive, and you have a single bad experience, you'll miss out on a great sport and some great people!  We wouldn't want that to happen... 

No, we certainly wouldn't! Thx for the reminder!

[Basslet]

foreplay. Now THERE'S an entirely loose subject all by itself. I think some people seriously underestimate this part. And, of course, for most women, foreplay does not start in the bedroom. I have to be in the mood long before that point.... it's the little things .... throughout the day, the week, whatever.

Yep. And sometimes people in long-term relationships forget about this. You begin to take each other for granted. Ingnore your spouse all day, all week, and then expect romance on a Saturday night.

Well, it took me a few days, but I did plow through this thread, skimming some, reading others intently. I wonder whatever happened to the original poster's cell phone guy.

This has been very interesting. I think that for people who are a little older, maybe have been married already, the whole thing of game playing and chasing and all that stuff is very tiresome. It's kind of different for teens and 20 somethings though. They're not sick of the BS yet.

When I meet someone for lunch or dinner or drinks, I like to pay my own way. That way, I can feel like an equal in the relationship. Sometimes the guy insists on paying and lets me leave the tip. That's ok too. But I don't see why the guy should have to take on the entire financial burden of dating.

Edited by Fairybasslet, 11 June 2005 - 09:23 PM.

[drbill]

[quote name='jextract' date='Jun 10 2005, 12:50 PM'] [QUOTE=jextract,Jun 10 2005, 11:22 AM
Perhaps it is [an L. A. thing]. Dating in this town is a rough game ... many women act as if they're owed something and some actually have financial criteria for going out with you - there are women here who tell you, up front, that they are going to check your finances, investments, real estate, and TRW as a consideration, and then they contribute nothing financially to the relationship. And then they wonder why they feel objectified when men look at them as nothing more than an acquisition and a depreciating asset. Ladies, pull your weight financially or be prepared to be treated appropriately ... this is the 21st Century.

We need more women like you, Anna, down here! And bring friends. [/quote]
Sigh, are you forgetting your friends (er, friend) out here on Catalina, Jamie? After all it is my birthday (officially now)!

I know what Jamie is referring to here about the financial "qualifications" some (too damned many) women in this region expect of a man. I've been fortunate to find female friends who value my intellectual "qualifications." I'm much happier with these women as friends than I would be with the "other" kind (and I just returned from "downtown" Avalon where there were plenty of them tonight. Yes, I came home alone (thank goodness).

[drbill]

Are you sure you're not a woman trapped inside a man's body?

I sure hope not... I'd hate to have to go out with men!

Seriously, I grew up in a house with three sisters and no brothers. I was a good brother to them (and still am). I learned a lot by living in the same house with them... some good, some not. But I do think it helped increase my understanding of women.

I do appreciate the greater depth of the conversations I experience with women. They (at least the ones I'm close to) talk real things instead of sports, business and sex. Well, they do talk diving... but that's a plus. I could care less about baseball or football (even though I come from a family that helped invent the NFL).

[fbp]

RE: The financial thing...

I just happened to have joined the initial charter at Match.com when it first started many years ago, got a lifetime membership free so it's not costing and is just a quick reminded of the past...

BUT...
with the same photo and same profile I was getting "hits" every now and then, apx 1-2 a month.. after all these years7-8?? only met with 3-4.. but anyway.. I was was getting mails and winks etc.

I then changed my profile at the bottom to something along these lines...

"... and to save time for both of us, I don't own a home, don't drive a jag and don't play golf... I'll wait till I get older, so if that is on your check list, you now have the information..."

Just sort of a "Disclaimer" at the bottom of the profile.
During the "Interview" process of the first meeting, that would always pop up... and in extremely innovated ways.. anyway....
NOT A HIT since... heheh... not one for 9 months...

So I said to myself "Self??" It would be interesting to see if I changed it to something like this:

"... just won the lottery, wanted to have someone to share it with... Travel the world...Blah-blah-blah..."

And see what the "Hit" rate would be then...
Not saying ALL are like that, but the would appear to be a majority..

Just thought I'd add that...

Edited by fbp, 12 June 2005 - 08:22 AM.

[annasea]

"... and to save time for both of us, I don't own a home, don't drive a jag and don't play golf... I'll wait till I get older, so if that is on your check list, you now have the information..."
Not saying ALL are like that, but the would appear to be a majority..

Just thought I'd add that...

Now you tell me! First you lead a gal on with recipes for crab and champagne, then you drop a bombshell like this?!

I guess no PNW HH for me after all!

But seriously, I'm quite shocked that some women operate like this. I couldn't imagine selecting a guy based primarily on his finances.


drbill, good to read about your 3 sisters. Now if only more men grew up in such a household!