104 replies to this topic

[drbill]

Is all this part of an eternal dilemma? Has it been going on for millennia? Was it the same for our great-grandparents, grandparents and parents... or were things a little more clear to them.

In this era it seems rare that people grow up with a set of friends that they know from pre-school on. Heck, today most people (at least out here) barely know their neighbors. I'd like to think that real love evolves over time, through a process of really getting to know, and respect, another person. I think much of society today is too fragmented for this process to work well... and that people rush into relationships for more superficial (hmmm... how do I phrase this without sounding judgmental?) reasons.

Edited by drbill, 27 December 2006 - 11:55 PM.

[annasea]

Is all this part of an eternal dilemma? Has it been going on for millennia? Was it the same for our great-grandparents, grandparents and parents... or were things a little more clear to them.

In this era it seems rare that people grow up with a set of friends that they know from pre-school on. Heck, today most people (at least out here) barely know their neighbors. I'd like to think that real love evolves over time, through a process of really getting to know, and respect, another person. I think much of society today is too fragmented for this process to work well... and that people rush into relationships for more superficial (hmmm... how do I phrase this without sounding judgmental?) reasons.

Well, you've got some interesting observations I'd like to comment on, but since I'm not quite sure what you mean by "superficial" reasons, I'll hold my thoughts. Would you care to clarify? (I'm an INTJ after all... I can handle "judgement*. )

[sunshinediver]

I guess my problem is that if there is "chemistry" between two people, I'm the antidote

You and me both!

[sunshinediver]

While the logical mind likes to rationalize things (lord knows I've done that for years and I have nothing but rationalizations to show for it) when someone likes you and it clicks...in most cases there is nothing rational about it...THEY LIKE YOU AND IT CLICKS AND IT SHOWS!

And they don't take 'no' for an answer...nor do they deter thier mission...UNLESS you specifically derail them. From the sounds of things...you did not do that.

Yes life sometimes interferes but they will TELL you that. I know if I can't 'keep a relationship going' at the same pace/speed due to life interfering I tell the other person so that they don't get the wrong impression.

OTOH...realtionships are very fragile in the early stages because most of them are based upon chemistry and chemistry is a very volatile and dicey combination of things we can't always figure out. Its a combo of wanting what you can't have...getting nervous if you find you 'have found it' too soon...some overlap from every relationship you've ever been in aka 'baggage' and sexual tension/chemistry. As you start to seek out a foundation for that chemistry to work within...often you encounter problems. (But logic says this is and should be a normal part of the culling process.)

The strange thing to me is that relationships are like playing the lottery...everytime you start one the odds of you hitting the 'big jackpot' are pretty slim. However we rarely get upset when our real lottery ticket doesn't pay off...in fact we sort of expect it. However when the dating lottery doesn't pay off we are shocked, upset and dumbfounded. Yet the odds are the same....unless you do proactive things to increase those odds, keep your mind and wits about yourself, then focus on other 'things' after you leveraged the odds in your favor, as men and women seem to know when you are 'focused' on finding a relationship and then they run...unless they are a 'player' and we've had that discussion already.

So scubagirl you did the right thing. And accept the pass for what its worth. In fact be thankful that you are decisive...lord knows I wasted way too much time trying to keep something going that never was there. So get out there and go dancing. If you liked any of his buddies then dance with them. If they fear he's still interested explain there is nothing there and never was so they can dance all they like. And go diving...its good for the soul!

BTW...since SD is not a dating site...its just what the scubadoc ordered!

Nice new avatar, WreckWench! How long have you been a couple?

[Scubatooth]

heres the thread, its a good read

[scubagirl]

Well Well Well, I haven't read this in a couple of weeks and its still going.

Well when I said next, I meant next. Just ask Scubapunk! I have been on a couple of dates with a nice man, from England. He has been back home for the holidays. He has emailed me every day since he left. We will be bringing in the new year together along with Scubapunk and some others. Here's the deal. I am not going to call him, he will have to do the chasing and/or pursuing. We will see how it goes and if I get approval from Scubapunk (I'm not kidding, if she doesn't like him, well CYA!). So far, she has been right about every one of them. Scubapunk... maybe theres another side job for ya. Meanwhile I have a friend in England who will be checking him out to make sure he is divorced. See, this is when the cynism comes into play. You want to trust them, but you have been burned or lied to so man times that you don't dare.
I wanted to respond to Moose's thoughts on girls like the bad boys. I think some do and some don't. Personally, I don't. I like the nice ones. But I can understand why you feel the way you feel and am glad you voiced your thoughts.

[WreckWench]

Here is where the insight comes into play. After I came back from Desert Storm, I got a job as a cop. I had an ego that could make Brad Pitt coward. I was a total a**hole and didn’t care who thought so. But, during that time, women loved me. The less I paid attention to them, the more they wanted me.

In the early stages of attraction we want what is EXCITING and sometimes what appears to be something we can't have. The thrill of the chase...the tingle of excitement over getting something everyone else doesn't have but wants and then having to exert a bit of effort to obtain something we hope is worthwhile...ahhhh...all the elements of INITIAL ATTRACTION!

Moose you hit the nail on the head...IN THE VERY EARLY STAGES OF ATTRACTION THAT IS! Keep in mind that what attacts us will not necessarily keep us together. And keep in mind that moths are attracted to flames until they get too close and die. Sometimes we as humans are also not so smart.

15 years has past since then. I’m no longer a cop, and I found a balance in my life that includes goodness towards others. I volunteer at the Women’s Crisis Center and at a local horse hospital. In fact, my Alma Mata just awarded me its highest alumni honor for a program that I’m starting to help clients of the WCC get their college degree. But I couldn’t get a date to save my life. (I was the only person who was stag at the black-tie award banquet, in my honor.)

Moose you are on track to being true to yourself. And THAT is I think the key not to mention SUPER SEXY. Perhaps you were not meant to have a date but rather enjoy the limelight you so richly deserved by yourself? Anyone with you might of defused that moment. It was your moment and one richly deserved. It should have been savored and enjoyed for what it was. (Sometimes I think people are so miserable being solo, single or by themselves that they exude that sense of frustration and well very few fun loving and vibrant people want to be around that kind of frustration. Now characterize that to the ANTICIPATION of excitement or thrill when you were a bad boy and didn't care. You had more female attention than you knew what to do with. But you had no desire to keep it...you used it and then tossed it. The trick I think is to COMBINE the two...they are in fact equally important parts of who you are.)

A friend of mine said it best....there are nice guys and there are bad men. The trick is to find a good man who is also at times a naughty boy.

Working with the clients of the women’s crisis center, I can’t believe the horrors that these women endure, and still udder phases like, “But I still love him.” As a cop, I was stabbed by a guy who was trying to kill his girlfriend in a bar. He did a little time in jail, and guess what? She waited for him. She even picked him up the day he got out.

Love is blind. We can love someone/something regardless of the logic or lack of logic in the situation. That is why we should assess someone's potential BEFORE we allow emotion to enter into the equation. We would never allow our emotion to carry us away if we were buying a house without FIRST checking to see if we can afford it, its in a good neighborhood, its not falling down in ill repair etc. However we often jump into a relationship without ever identifying if someone could or would meet our basic needs.

Also battered women often go thru cycle after cycle of abuse. They were most likely abused as kids/young adults and they are abused now and they know nothing but abuse. They usually can not break or will not break the cycle of abuse. And if they have children they will pass this unhealthy perspective onto them. You can not compare apples to oranges.

So maybe you ladies could enlighten us on what is it about a guy that really is honest and genuine, that’s caring and thoughtful, that is so unappealing? I understand it must have something to do with the “I only want what I can’t have syndrome,” But where does it end?

Ok I'll take a stab...they are NOT unappealing. UNLESS that is all they talk about...or they spend too much time 'selling me' on what a great catch they are. (Let me see and figure that out myself in a slow and savoring process! )

Of course if you do drop a clue...do it in a funny or witty or even a slightly cocky way saying "Hey...you snoozed too long and missed a chance to have a date with one extremely well balanced and quite attractive guy!" You've not only busted me, you've teased me a bit and raised the stakes that I might not get a second chance to get a date with you! And you are sort of telling me that I might not be able to handle you. Now you've raised the stakes so that in a playful way I might be willing to prove you wrong. Get the idea?

And yes...EVERYONE wants what they can't have to some extent.

Let me see...two women catch your eye. One gives you signals that she is a nice girl and is very focused on dropping hints about how great she cooks, how much she loves kids etc. The other well she is trying to ignore you but still keeps holding your eye. Then she challenges you to something silly and you've taken the bait. Now you are engaged in a converstation with her and you are trying to figure her out.

3rd party observation...your gal friends are thinking what are you doing...the first gal is obviously a great catch and has everything in the world to offer and you aren't paying her any attention. (You are probably thinking well if I strike out with the second girl I can always get to know the first girl better since afterall she has obviously shown interest in me.) And your guy friends are saying "yeah dude...go for the second chick...she's spicy and fun! Or you aren't going to take that from a girl are you? Either way...the second girl catches your fancy and you are intrigued.

Truth of the matter is...women respond the same way to men. Make yourself intriguing when you first meet...focus on being fun and witty and light. Save the REALLY GOOD STUFF until later when you've decided that the girl/guy DESERVES YOUR REALLY GOOD STUFF! Don't reveal your best points first...its like playing poker....keep some of the good stuff close to the vest until its the right time to show your cards! -ww

[Moose]

And THAT is I think the key not to mention SUPER SEXY. Perhaps you were not meant to have a date but rather enjoy the limelight you so richly deserved by yourself? Anyone with you might of defused that moment. It was your moment and one richly deserved. It should have been savored and enjoyed for what it was.

Actually, I’m quite used to awards presentation. But this one really stuck with me. Over the years, I’ve received numerous awards, citations, etc. It was when I was standing in front of 500 people, all of which were in couples, that I felt that something was really wrong. Then I realized that every time I received one of these awards, or had a banquet in my honor, I was ALWAYS alone. I’ve never had a moment to share with someone else. In fact, in my life, I’ve only been to a single wedding where I was dating someone. (And I think she was just with me for the wedding. It was in Italy and we spent a month there during the wedding, which I paid for.)

I know who I am. I’m have a personality, and I’m successful in most of the things I do. I like myself. I don’t mind being alone. It’s just that I’m always alone.

I’m not “needy” or “clingy” or anything, but it’s just that being alone all the time wears you down. In my work, I’m alone most of the time. I travel a lot (mostly for work), always alone. I live alone. I have a hell of a lot to offer, and it’s frustrating to see all these losers guys around me dating (and cheating on) very nice women. The same women that would only be interested in me as a friend.

Here is a perfect example. Sept of 03, A women was trapped in a burning car on rt 78. I ran over to her car, (with the car well engulfed in flames) and tried to open the door. Due to the collision, the door was jammed. I was able to pry the door open (thank God for cheap steel on imports.) Once the door was open, she screamed to me “I can’t move!”
(She had broken her pelvis in the accident.) I reached into the car, and pulled her out. I then dragged her about 15 feet from the wreck, when the smoke overcame me. A few people on the sidelines grabbed her and moved her further from the car.
After catching my breath, I looked at the other car. There was a woman in that one, screaming. Then I noticed the smoke coming from the hood of her car. I ran over, saw that she had a broken femur and that moving her was very dangerous. I had a fire extinguisher in my car that I used to put out the small fire so we could keep her in the car. Then I started first aid. In this whole process, I suffered from 2nd degree burns on my face and hands. Both women lived, but it would be a long time before either of them walked again (neither where wearing seatbelts.)
So, where am I going with this? The next day, I was front page news, in 2 states. Inside the paper was a story about the amount of marriage proposals that Scott Peterson was receiving IN PRISON. (Remember, he murdered his wife and unborn baby.) The girl I pulled out of the car had 7 marriage proposals from her hospital bed. Me, I couldn’t get a date! WTF?
BTW, here are links to the newspaper stories…
http://tinyurl.com/3cchf and http://tinyurl.com/4obtu

So, I ask you, does this sound like a wimpy guy? Isn’t this the kind of thing you would look for in a person?

Let me see...two women catch your eye. One gives you signals that she is a nice girl and is very focused on dropping hints about how great she cooks, how much she loves kids etc. The other well she is trying to ignore you but still keeps holding your eye. Then she challenges you to something silly and you've taken the bait. Now you are engaged in a conversation with her and you are trying to figure her out.

OK, maybe this is where I make a mistake, but no. I’d go for the woman that is showing clear signs of interest. Frankly, I consider what the other girl is doing to be along the lines of “head games.” If you are interested in me, show it. If not, don’t bother. I do use logic to drive my decisions more than emotion. It’s a requirement in my job.

[Walter]

You are a brave man, one I'd be proud to call a friend. No, you are not a wimp. It's also important you are not perceived as one.

[Racer184]

Forget all the games now !

I have not kept track, but I am sure that 3/4 of the women I have dated asked me out.
I do not have any motivation to try to figure out what a woman is thinking. If she is interested in me, she can ask me for a date. This usually happens after meeting her a few times (at some social gathering). Many times it was a woman that I had never seen in my life would just walk up to me and ask. Unless I was in a commited relationship at the time she asked, I always said yes. I always said yes to at least one date because she was able to make herself clear by asking instead of playing games. That is always a good sign.

Things women can say that cause INSTANT termination of a relationship:

• "If you don't know, I am not going to tell you"
• "Couldn't you tell what I was thinking?"
• "That's not what you mean, I know what you are really thinking"

[WreckWench]

If I am teasing or flirty or just being 'wenchie' that does not mean I'm playing games. I am being myself. Of course there are times when 'being myself' is very straightforward and business like or even at times a bit blunt.

The point is that everyone has many facets of themselves...and there is always a time and place for everyone of those facets!

I agree with Racer...say what you mean and mean what you say. I never make a guy guess what I'm thinking for fear he'll make me do the same thing and I'll fail miserably.

However while I know that people 'play games' sometimes because its all they know or sometimes because they have something to prove i.e. how many dates can I get, or sometimes because they are on a power trip...I do not think that MOST people play games. And I think we automatically assume people are playing games when we don't understand them or we interpret an action incorrectly.

[mantarraya]

I personally think that there are just some people that just have a hard time finding that special someone. I certainly was one of those people. I'm think it was mainly just due to my basic personality and life situation - being very independent, not being that good at signaling that I was interested, being busy with school/career/raising a daughter. But I think it was also due to the fact that I just never met someone that I felt really, really comfortable with. I met plenty of people I was attracted to, and was involved with a few seriously for some time, but still, the real connection with those other men was missing. How do I know? Because I am lucky enough to have that connection with someone now. Most amazingly, it is someone that is not "my type", and is light-years away from anyone I would have dated normally. All I know is that we connected well from the very start, and despite some reticence on both of our parts to get involved in any serious relationship, we decided to give it a go. We almost had to, just because we get along so durn well. But as my SO says, it sure was a long time coming....

Edited by mantarraya, 29 December 2006 - 11:47 AM.

[Racer184]

RE: Wreckwench post.

My comment: Exactly !

[sunshinediver]

The next day, I was front page news, in 2 states. Inside the paper was a story about the amount of marriage proposals that Scott Peterson was receiving IN PRISON. (Remember, he murdered his wife and unborn baby.) The girl I pulled out of the car had 7 marriage proposals from her hospital bed. Me, I couldn’t get a date! WTF?

Moose, will you marry me?

[Moose]

Moose, will you marry me?

Ok, I'm been following the thread here closely. I'll give a try as to the advice that Walter gave me. Here is the recap of his advice...

Tease her. Talk about current events. Tease her. Talk about diving. Tease her. Talk about music. Tease her. Oh, did I forget to tell you - tease her.

So, Sunshinediver. How are you doing? Will I marry you? Lets see, How much do you make a year? Awe, I'm just kidding. So, did you hear that Kansas got nearly 32 inches of snow yesterday? They need dive gear just to get to their cars!
So what kind of music do you listen to? I'm a huge Tori Amos fan. But most of my radios are set to jazz or Blues stations. I guess living in Florida there is not much snow or blues eh? But I bet you get to do some great diving year round.

So, how did I do? It was my first time trying Walter's approach. So please bear with me.